The title of this page is meant to be a little humorous. As I've said elsewhere on this site, I do not consider the people I respond to here my enemies; we disagree; we are, perhaps, opponents, but not enemies. I called Phil this because, of all the people I've disagreed with on this issue, he has been the most gracious and reasonable (you'll soon see what I mean.) So, without further ado, I present Mr. Needler's post from my guestbook.
For the most part, I grew up in an environment separated from Rock Music. I went to a Baptist School 1-12 grade. No rock music was allowed at the school. I grew up in a Christian home. My parents never played rock music, in fact; my dad’s description of rock music was that of “someone trying to scare the wild animals out of the jungle”. Rock music was never in my parents “tastes” or “liking” as far as music goes.
Therefore, rock music was not much a part of my life.In high school, I made a new friend. He talked about rock groups and rock songs and I had no idea what he was talking about. He made fun of my “ignorance” of the rock scene.
Peer pressure is big in school. Approval from peers is almost life and death for some. Such was the case for me in high school.I did not have a radio in my room; however, I began making the practice of scheduling time to go down to the basement and digest the latest secular tunes so that I could be cool in school; knowing what was going on.
Probably one of the biggest moments of my teen years was when I obtained my drivers’ license. Now I had the freedom to drive to school. I had the freedom to drive around town with this friend before or after basketball practice. We would go to the mall where I purchased rock music tapes. Of course all this was encouraged by my friend. We would hop back into the car and listen to the tunes.As time progressed, I got more and more tapes and cds; and became more and more involved with rock music. I saw the ill effects it had on my life. As a teen, I had times where I would sit down with my friend and tell him that I needed to get away from rock music. I’d get away from it for a while; and then get back into it. Sometimes, I’d even get rid of the tapes and cds; just to end up buying them back again. Columbia House made this so easy; with their music deals.
There were times when I would just listen to Christian Rock and not Secular Rock; but Christian Rock always seemed to lead me into Secular Rock; because the Christian Rock did not feed my flesh the way Secular Rock did. I lived for the rhythms and the beats. I knew the secular bands produced higher quality sounds, beats, and rhythms, that my flesh enjoyed so I headed back again and again to the secular. I remember anxiously awaiting the last class to get out so I could rush to my car to get a “adrenaline rush” a “pick me up” from my music. It was the beat that I craved. I didn’t care what kind of trashy words I had to sift through. I wanted whatever groups put out the music with the best beats. Whether it be the song, “Whoop There it is”, “Daisy Dukes”, “Slam”, or “Rump Shaker” did not matter to me; just as long as it had a provocative, sensual, fleshly beat!Not only that, I spent about $450.00 on speakers and an amplifier for the car; so I could better feel that beat! What a waste of money! As one rock and roll song says, “The Heart of Rock’n’roll is the Beat.” The beat was what I was after!
Rock music had me bound. Bound in the time it consumed. Bound in the money in consumed. Bound as the lyrics went from normal secular lyrics to purchasing those tapes with “Parental Advisory” on the cover.The battle raged through my Junior, Senior year of school. The battle raged through the summer after graduation; as well as my first semester at Indiana Wesleyan University. I would get into the music; repent; and go back into it again. It was a constant cycle. I couldn’t seem to kick the rock music out of my life.
It was Christmas break during my freshman year of college. I went to visit another friend of mine who was at a Bible College. Needless to say, that weekend changed my life. I saw his burden for winning souls; saw my self filled purposeless life; and decided to change. I went to visit him with rock music in my car (a box full). I went home and got rid of that music.I began to grow in my walk with the Lord through daily Bible study and prayer. That summer, I accepted a position as youth leader at a local church. This caused my spiritual growth to skyrocket. I not only had to feed myself spiritual food; now I had to feed others.
That same summer, I went to an independent Baptist Youth Conference. The last day of the conference, a preacher preached against DC TALK, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Amy Grant. I was furious. I told the friend I was with “that music is not the best music, but it isn’t bad”. The next day, I had to do my regular summer job of mowing grass at a cemetery. For eight hours on a riding lawn mower, the Holy Spirit of God convicted me about my Christian Rock Music. I went home that night and got rid of my Christian Rock music that was obviously ROCK.Months down the road, I sent a box of my cds to a preacher friend of mine and told him to decide what I should keep and what I should throw away. These were cds like “Ray Boltz” which only has a slight beat. He accidentally misplaced this box so I did not get any of these cds back.
I sincerely wanted to “come clean” and glorify God with my music. I wanted my music to be spotless and without blemish from the world.Can a person go too far to the right? I don’t know. I just want to please my Heavenly Father.
I do know that there are certain beats and rhythms that cause my flesh to “kick in”; and that I can’t permit those beats and rhythms into my life no matter what the words are.I made most of my music decisions before I ever became an independent Baptist. I transferred to a Baptist College; because they were what I was and what I wanted to be.
My music decisions did not come out of wanting to be a legalistic rule keeper; trying to merit my way into Heaven by strenuous rule keeping (Pharisees). My music decisions came out of my desire to have a closer walk with the Lord. With every music decision I made, my walk with God deepened.Holy Spirit fullness is not me having more of God; rather, it is God having more of me.
Is Christian Rock right for some; and a stumbling block for others? That is an interesting question that some present.Should we go to the Gregorian Chant like some sarcastically suggest?
Could we be safe just to stick with instruments like the piano, flute, organ, acoustic guitar, harp, and trumpet? A good melody could be made with those! No appearance of evil or stumbling block is associated with those instruments.What do you think? E-mail me: phil@phil-needler-ministries.com
Is all music good? Is there such a thing as sinful music? Am I too narrow minded? Do you have questions for me? Is there something you’d like to tell me?Feel free to send me an e-mail.
Looking for a Christian Web Site? Visit: phil-needler-ministries.comFeel free to paste anything from my web site to this guest book. Have fun.
Thanks for allowing me to share my testimony and heart on the matter of music.
In Christ,
Phil Needler
Director of phil-needler-ministries.com
And now, here for your reading enjoyment is my trenchant and incisive reply. (Sorry, I have a minor streak of grandiosity I've got to exercise every once in a while) :-)
That said, having read what you had to say, I'm not sure we even disagree. You say Christian Rock isn't right for you, and to that I say, "Good for you. Know your own boundaries." I haven't the slightest problem with people who choose for spiritual reasons not to have it in their own lives. My beef is with those who've made that decision for everybody. To quote C. S. Lewis, "One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way." There are people for whom an occasional beer or a glass of wine is no problem. For others, even to be somewhere alcohol is being served is a very, very bad idea. Those who are not healthy have no right to tell those who are stronger (in this area) what they can and cannot do. Conversely, those who can drink have would be (at least) inconsiderate to invite an alcoholic to a party where beer is being served or anything else like this.
If you want a biblical viewpoint on all this, read Romans 14 and I Corinthians 8. The issue being discussed there is meat which has been sacrificed to idols. In my opinion, this discussion is very similar to the one we're talking about. Rock is music that has been sacrificed to idols. It has been laid on the altar of fame, greed, drugs, promiscuity, etc. Then along comes a Christian musician who says, "Those are no gods at all. That 'sacrifice' means nothing. I'm going to take this music and use it for God." People who can't help associating the rock genre with a worldly lifestyle call this "food sacrificed to idols" evil. Others for whom the music is simply music say there is nothing wrong with it. And so, if we claim to believe the Bible, we must refer to what Paul says.I've got one question for you, Phil. Did your parents say that rock music was simply distasteful or did they call it outright evil? I'm asking this for a reason. If you don't mind, I'd like to tell you a story. I call this story, "The Evil Tomato."
Bobby loved his mommy and daddy. He always tried his best to obey them and wanted nothing more than to please them. Although there's no such thing as the perfect family, Bobby's home was, on the whole, a happy one.So now you're asking, "what's the point of this silly story?" Well, the point is this: You and I both know that eating tomatoes is not wrong. Bobby's parents might even know that. But Bobby did not. He genuinely believed that it was wrong to eat a tomato. And because he believed that, for him, it was. And because he believed it was wrong, Satan got to play all the same games with him that he could if he was doing something was objectively wrong.One thing Bobby's parents had taught him since he was a baby was that eating tomatoes, or anything made from tomatoes, was bad. Bobby was a good boy, and so whenever he was eating somewhere away from home, he was always careful to steer clear of ketchup, or spaghetti sauce or anything else with tomatoes.
This was all well and good, until one day, when he was in the eighth grade, he was staying overnight at his best friend's house. His friend got out of the fridge a fresh tomato and sliced it up. His friend had a slice himself and then offered Bobby one."Oh no," Bobby said. "I can't eat that. Tomatoes are bad."
His friend said, "What are you talking about? This is straight out of my mom's garden. It tastes great.""Your mom grows these?" Bobby asked.
When his friend said yes, Bobby decided that maybe just one bite wouldn't be so bad. He took a slice and after, on his friend's advice, adding a little salt, he bit into it.He couldn't believe it! This tasted great. He inhaled the rest of his slice and then, before he knew what he was doing, asked for another.
That night when he went home, he felt really awful. He'd let his parents down. Why did he have to eat that tomato? He decided he'd never eat another tomato in his life.He did pretty well for a while. About a year later, though, he and some friends were out at McDonald's. He was eating his plain fries as usual and his friends had theirs with ketchup. After a little bit, he started wondering how it was. He tried a little bit of his friends ketchup. Again, he couldn't help himself. He went up and got some ketchup for himself. Finally he got another order of fries for himself just so he could have some more ketchup. Just like last time, it tasted so good, but Bobby felt so guilty for eating it.
This was the beginning of the end for Bobby. After that, he started getting ketchup on hot dogs and hamburgers. He tried to convince himself it was no a big deal. But he always had a nagging guilt in the corner of his mind. Then, it got worse. On weekends, he'd tell his parents he was going to the library, and he'd sneak out to an italian restaurant and have a big plate of spaghetti. At this point he gave in and decided he was just a bad person and that was all there was to it. He had crossed the line. He had become one of them: a tomato-eater.He managed to keep all this secret for almost two years. But one day, his dad found an empty jar of Prego in his room.
"What is this?!?" his father demanded.Thus began an enormous argument. And that's why, in the middle of the eleventh grade, Bobby ended up moving out of his parents' house. His life continued to go downhill from there. The last I heard of him, he was on a street corner begging change so he could go buy himself a V8.
What I'm saying is that if your parents taught you as a child that rock music is inherently evil, then for you to listen to it *is* wrong. And because for you it is wrong, listening to rock music would automatically drag along with it thoughts of rebellion against your parents and other spiritual ill effects.
The second lesson to be drawn from my little story is that it is risky to try and add more to God's laws. What was once innocent is now tarnished, and that's just one more "sin" for Satan to drag that person down with. I just spent a couple of minutes trying to find a good passage from Galatians to throw in here, but the best I can do I just say read chapters three through five on your own.That last paragraph is why I argue with the critics of Christian Rock. Not just because I enjoy the music (though I do), not just because I believe there is nothing morally wrong with it (which I do), but because by teaching others that rock is Satan's territory, they are handing over that much more ground to sin, and surrendering that much more of the freedom Christ gave us.
>As time progressed, I got more and more tapes and cds; and became more and more involved with rock music. I saw the ill effects it had on my life.Like I said earlier, whether or not rock music is objectively wrong, you believed it was wrong, and so it was wrong for you. Doing something you believe to be wrong even if it is not can have just as ill effects on your life as doing something which is wrong in and of itself.
When you went to rock music, you went there in an attitude of rebellion and looking for more of it. When I go to rock music, it's just a normal part of life for me. My parents never told me there was anything wrong with it, so I'm not disobeying them. Sure, they may not enjoy listening to my music, but then again, I don't like some of their music, so we're even. :-)>There were times when I would just listen to Christian Rock and not Secular Rock; but Christian Rock always seemed to lead me into Secular Rock; because the Christian Rock did not feed my flesh the way Secular Rock did. I lived for the rhythms and the beats. I knew the secular bands produced higher quality sounds, beats, and rhythms, that my flesh enjoyed so I headed back again and again to the secular.
There are two things here that I want to address. First, yes, Christian rock is generally not as high quality musically as it's secular counterpart. This is one of the problems I have with having a nice little separate world for "Christian" music. But that is a discussion for another time.Second, I'd like to present a personal testimony from the other side. A friend of mine (whom I will simply refer to as "J") was coming out of a lifestyle of drugs and alcoholism. She had worked the twelve steps and was getting her life cleaned up and together. That summer, God brought into her life two other women in a similar place, spiritually. These two introduced J to Christian music, "which was a miracle to me, because I'd actually contemplated the whole Christianity thing. But I knew that to be a Christian . . . I would have to give up a lot of stuff. . . . I had to give up my music because I knew I listened to Led Zeppelin and the Eagles and Rush. . . . I knew inside that was something I would have to change.
"[We listened to DC Talk, and Larry Norman] which was cool because it sounded like the stuff that I liked. . . . When I would listen to that music [Christian rock], I would feel filled up in my heart. After I got into listening to that kind of music and I would listen to my [old] music, I didn't feel filled up."The discovery of Christian rock was an important point in my friend's return to Christ. She had to give up her old, secular music, but she could keep the musical style she likes. I don't know how much my word counts in this case, but I'll say this anyway. No one is perfect, but my friend J basically has her life together, and has an active walk with God. And Christian Rock helped get her there.
You kept going from Christian rock to secular in order to satisfy the flesh. J left secular rock music to go to Christian rock to feed her spirit. So apparently it can go both ways. >It was the beat that I craved. I didn’t care what kind of trashy words I had to sift through. See, for me, this is not true at all. I don't listen to music with degrading lyrics. The lyrics to a song are extremely important to me. The "provocative, sensual, fleshly beat" may be kind of fun, I guess, but if the the words sung on top of it are degrading or sinful or worse yet (in my book at least) mindlessly vapid, I find another band.Yet again, this may be another area where you personally are weak which does not make a rule for all.
>Not only that, I spent about $450.00 on speakers and an amplifier for the car;Okay, this sounds more like an issue of self-control and financial responsibility than a problem specifically with the music.
>I sincerely wanted to “come clean” and glorify God with my music. I wanted my music to be spotless and without blemish from the world.Good, and I congratulate you. I would like to suggest at this point, though, that Titus 1:15 might be relevant. "To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure." Now, I hope you don't take this wrong. I'm not going to suggest that you don't believe. But is it just possible, that in this one place, *you* are corrupted and therefore, what is pure to me is not pure to you?
I'll try and give an example from my own life. Most colleges with a decent art department have figure drawing classes. The drawing is generally done from nude models. I don't believe there is anything wrong with this. It has been done for (at least) hundreds of years. I do not believe this is wrong. But I think it would probably be wrong for me to sign up for one of these classes. Why? Because *I* am not pure. I have had (and still have) serious struggles with sexual lust in my life, and taking one of those classes would very likely send me into that struggle again unnecessarily. The class is pure. I am not.>My music decisions did not come out of wanting to be a legalistic rule keeper; trying to merit my way into Heaven by strenuous rule keeping (Pharisees).
And I would not call you a Pharisee . . . yet. Only when you set down the rules God has given to you specifically as rules for everybody will you become, in my book, a legalist. I won't even attempt to argue about the purity of your motives for your own music decisions, because I believe that God may very well have set these things off-limits to you. If God has given you those boundaries, by all means, stay within them.>Is Christian Rock right for some; and a stumbling block for others? That is an interesting question that some present.
Well, I guess it's pretty obvious by now what I think about this question.>Should we go to the Gregorian Chant like some sarcastically suggest?
The suggestion was not simply sarcasm. What I meant was that that is where we would be if the reactionaries of the past had succeeded. And that is where we will be 200 years from now if the reactionaries of the present day succeed.>Could we be safe just to stick with instruments like the piano, flute, organ, acoustic guitar, harp, and trumpet?
We could certainly be "safe." We could also be culturally irrelevant. God's way has never been the "safe" way. The true path of Christianity is beset by dangers on every side, because it is not a set of rules we have to keep, but a relationship we have to keep alive, and that's a lot more risky. It's a lot easier to make a mistake when you're trying to have a living, growing relationship than when you're just trying to keep a list of rules.Finally, Phil, I would just like to thank you for being one of the few rational, open-minded critics of Christian rock I've had the pleasure to encounter. We may disagree on this one point, but there is so much more on which we agree. Maybe I am wrong, then pray for God to reveal the truth to me (just be sure to phrase it that way, "the truth" not "this particular 'truth' that I want him to believe." God knows what's true and he doesn't need us telling him.)
Love in Christ,
"Reserve your right to think. For even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all."
- Hypatia of Alexandria